I was about to click the anon button to say general "word," but actually I have no problem putting my name to the fact that this prompt made my skin crawl. Because stories in which a disabled person is cured against their express will, stories about how hard it is for an able-bodied person to deal with having a disabled partner , boo hoo -- stories whose entire thrust is that the able-bodied person's feelings here are clearly most important regarding the body of their partner -- stories where a person with a long-term condition is dismissed and ignored when they say they are fine, that is not okay.
And it is absolutely not kinkbashing to say so, unless the anon is actually willing to say that ablism is their kink.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
I really hate to say this, but ymmv. We've had requests for non-con and such, too, and as this requests doesn't include bashing, just some other dubious things, they're allowed in the meme. While your opinion is respectable, it might make it difficult to have people voice their kinks, again, questionable and dubious or whatever they are, as ablist as they might be. This is supposed to be a kink meme. It might be a case of "If you don't like it, don't read/look at it." Some of the prompts have made me cringe and I moved past them and looked for others I've liked. This one might hit most of your buttons in a bad way, but you can move past it.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Some of the prompts have made me cringe and I moved past them and looked for others I've liked
No, it is absolutely not the same to say that "a kink I don't like" is analogous to "someone's request is ablist and socially offensive." What this prompt is asking for would be completely unacceptable in the race context, "I turned my partner white without asking him because it's hard for me to deal with dating someone of color, and this is better for him." That's what this prompt is doing in the disability context. Equating that to someone just not having a noncon kink is shortsighted and simply incorrect.
People may like what they like and not like what they don't like. They may not, however, say things like the above and expect not to get called on them. Kinkmeme is not a free pass to be racist or ablist -- it is a relatively safe space of relative anonymity where desires can be discussed and fulfilled. And part of having a safe space is the ability to call people on their shit when it is, I repeat, not okay.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
I would like to note here that the original prompt when read does not actually state that Harry cures whatever disease is being handled. It's asking how Harry handles the knowledge, and how Harry handles knowing that he can cure the person in question. It even offers the option that he does not cure the person.
I am with you on the healing without full knowledge and consent being wrong, but again I must point out - that's not exactly what the prompt calls for.
...however, I can see how that one lone question has led to this... well, let's just call it a discussion (though I can tell some people are seriously pissed off).
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Although I could see Harry being his brilliant self and attempting to "help" without their consent, especially earlier on, and the awful fall-out that would occur from that. Even Bob would be on him: "Remember all those 'trust' issues and such, Boss?"
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
We've actually had a prompt like that - Harry curing something and slipping in something that would cure other slight (and completely normal) aging problems as well. Without telling the other party.
Which was part of what inspired this, I must admit, although I will not link to it as it was a wonderful prompt and doesn't deserve... this.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Unless the original prompt was a brilliantly conceived and horrendously communicated metaprompt with full narrative kink awareness, kink is hardly the issue at hand here.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
I read it as the suggestion was that the sick character brushes away Harry's initial concern as they have learned to live with the pain, not because they don't want to be cured.
Those are two very different scenarios. One is Harry being a pain in the neck when he can't do anything productive. The other is Harry having a way to actually help.
Yes, curing someone without consent is full of massive massive, Mouse and Sue sized issues even without throwing a bond into the mix. But the prompt never says they don't want to be cured, either in this way or in anyway, just that they don't want people fussing over them and not changing anything.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
The prompt -- and many anons are, however, going way out of their way to demonstrate that they do assume character x wants to be cured. Which can be an ablist assumption. Some people with disabilities seek cures. Many, many do not. However, the default assumption that someone with a disability must want a cure is ablist. And at this point, I am really really not willing or able to give anyone the benefit of the doubt on that one, given other comments made.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
Given the OP's recent comments about wanting a "fantasy happy-ending" and all that entails, not giving the benefit of the doubt seems to be the way to go...
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
... do I need to point out that it is a "fantasy happy-ending" and not everyone's happy endings are going to be the same?
Ask yourself this: would you feel the same if the prompt had had been written so that the person with the disability was not cured, and they lived happily ever after with the disease?
If the answer is 'no, it would not bother me', then you are a disableist - because you cannot accept that some people do want to be cured.
As another anon mentioned, the OP didn't state what the other character wanted, and as someone else (perhaps the OP) mentioned, the prompt states no where that the disease is actually cured.
You are, in fact, assuming an ending to a fic that was never written.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
Agree: that is an ableist assumption; not all who are diseased/disabled seek cures. Some do, some don't.
Disagree: the prompt does not call for it. The prompt, as I read it, is asking if Harry can even offer the cure, and if he decides he can risk it - which for Harry is the more likely possibility, depending on circumstances and how deep this "bond" goes - how does he go about accomplishing that. The prompt asks: "if he does [ie: if he can go through with the cure], will he tell the one he cures?"
The obvious "other question" there is will he go through with it and tell the other character. I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in cutting questions that were opposite to each other to cut down on length, though I do doubt the decision of which questions he/she actually used...
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
If we can have fills with rape where it is clearly being done against the person's consent (hence the term "rape"), deal with gender issues, have generous use of "date rape" scenarios (including fuck-or-die and AMTDI), then disability prompts should not be an issue. There are a whole host of other prompts and fills which are clearly not OK in real life, but we're writing and prompting them anyways.
This argument seriously needs to end.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
The difference is that nobody in this kinkmeme, whatever rape fantasies they have, believes that rape is a good idea, or goes about raping people.
Several of you clearly believe that healing PWD against their will or without their knowledge is a great idea. Several of you clearly believe that going out and "helping" people based on the able-bodied person's idea of what help they need is a great idea. The OP of this prompt has outright said that their issue with the disabled people and their life is how annoying it is to have disabled people in your life.
I don't believe that any of you will rape me. But I do believe, based on some of the things that I've seen said here, that if I encounter any of you in real life you might harm me. And I would like to believe that some education might happen here, probably not to the original poster who has clearly checked out of the discussion, but to some of the lurkers. I would like to believe that some of those lurkers will think twice about the people with disabilities in their lives.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Or it's a bunch of people bitching on a kink meme of all places, taking up space, hurting people's feelings needlessly, and annoying people who are interested in prompts and fills and not arguments. If people feel the need for a real discussion for this, I think an alternate link should be given just for that discussion. If it's not that important, then it should just stop here.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Frankly I'm finding it much more interesting than the usual boring brainstorming and squeeing that goes on instead of fills and takes up space. I think an alternate link should be given just for that discussion. If it's not that important, then it should just stop here.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
I have no idea who you are. You might think that rape is a good idea. You might be able to track who I am through my posts, come and find me in my bed, and do some of the things I have written about or prompted to me, because I've written about them so "clearly" I must want them.
I have no idea what your issues are, and you have no idea what mine are or what the OP's are. Maybe the OP is an ableist, maybe she isn't. Maybe s/he has issues with all disabled people, or mabye just the ones in his/her life. We don't know and assuming otherwise is ignorance all around.
I always make the assumption that someone can harm me. I assume that people are ignorant, and I try to be tolerant. But honestly, this isn't a school and we're not here to teach lessons or show people why their prompts can't happen in RL.
This is a kink meme. Meant for kinks and for fun. Please keep it that way.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
*raises hand* Where is the right place to educate people about prejudice then? I see this argument all the time. The tone argument, the venue argument, these just distract from the issue. This isn't a school, no, but schools don't tell you about ableism. It has to be discovered in situations like this so people can learn. Because sorry, I don't think I would have ever heard of ableism if it weren't for debates like this.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
Seriously? We had discussions similar to these in my English classes, my sociology classes, and my psychology classes. I'm certain I've had them other places as well, but I'm not sure. It's also something that's come up in conversations with friends and family, though generally not in a public situation or where we could be easily overheard because of situations like what happened here - someone says something, someone else gets offended, and the whole conversation degenerates from there.
I'm not sure there is a "right" place to discuss issues like this, but there are certainly appropriate and inappropriate places and ways. This is a hurtful and vengeful discussion in a kink meme. Had this been moved to the discussion thread (as asked) and talked about in a calm manner without the insults and the intentional disregard of the feelings of anons who feel differently, then I think that would have been a better course - I wouldn't have a problem with it then.
Attempt to do things that you believe will help me without asking first if it's help I need. I encounter this kind of help every day. Some of it is coworkers telling me not to do my job because I might hurt myself, thus harming me professionally. Some of it is people taking things away from me because they are afraid I will hurt myself -- and even if one disregards the psychological harm caused by that, in the act of taking things away from me that I want to be holding you can cause me physical harm. Some of it is people telling me to stop doing things I'm perfectly capable of doing because they think I am hurting myself, people yelling at me and harassing me because they think they are being "helpful". There are people who body check me out of the way of doors because they want to be helpful by opening them for me. Etc.
[point].............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. [equating fictional noncon with real ableism]
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(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
And it is absolutely not kinkbashing to say so, unless the anon is actually willing to say that ablism is their kink.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)While your opinion is respectable, it might make it difficult to have people voice their kinks, again, questionable and dubious or whatever they are, as ablist as they might be. This is supposed to be a kink meme. It might be a case of "If you don't like it, don't read/look at it."
Some of the prompts have made me cringe and I moved past them and looked for others I've liked. This one might hit most of your buttons in a bad way, but you can move past it.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
No, it is absolutely not the same to say that "a kink I don't like" is analogous to "someone's request is ablist and socially offensive." What this prompt is asking for would be completely unacceptable in the race context, "I turned my partner white without asking him because it's hard for me to deal with dating someone of color, and this is better for him." That's what this prompt is doing in the disability context. Equating that to someone just not having a noncon kink is shortsighted and simply incorrect.
People may like what they like and not like what they don't like. They may not, however, say things like the above and expect not to get called on them. Kinkmeme is not a free pass to be racist or ablist -- it is a relatively safe space of relative anonymity where desires can be discussed and fulfilled. And part of having a safe space is the ability to call people on their shit when it is, I repeat, not okay.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)I am with you on the healing without full knowledge and consent being wrong, but again I must point out - that's not exactly what the prompt calls for.
...however, I can see how that one lone question has led to this... well, let's just call it a discussion (though I can tell some people are seriously pissed off).
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)Which was part of what inspired this, I must admit, although I will not link to it as it was a wonderful prompt and doesn't deserve... this.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-17 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
Those are two very different scenarios. One is Harry being a pain in the neck when he can't do anything productive. The other is Harry having a way to actually help.
Yes, curing someone without consent is full of massive massive, Mouse and Sue sized issues even without throwing a bond into the mix. But the prompt never says they don't want to be cured, either in this way or in anyway, just that they don't want people fussing over them and not changing anything.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:18 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:22 am (UTC)(link)Ask yourself this: would you feel the same if the prompt had had been written so that the person with the disability was not cured, and they lived happily ever after with the disease?
If the answer is 'no, it would not bother me', then you are a disableist - because you cannot accept that some people do want to be cured.
As another anon mentioned, the OP didn't state what the other character wanted, and as someone else (perhaps the OP) mentioned, the prompt states no where that the disease is actually cured.
You are, in fact, assuming an ending to a fic that was never written.
(frozen comment) Re: You should have said something...
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:49 am (UTC)(link)Disagree: the prompt does not call for it. The prompt, as I read it, is asking if Harry can even offer the cure, and if he decides he can risk it - which for Harry is the more likely possibility, depending on circumstances and how deep this "bond" goes - how does he go about accomplishing that. The prompt asks: "if he does [ie: if he can go through with the cure], will he tell the one he cures?"
The obvious "other question" there is will he go through with it and tell the other character. I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in cutting questions that were opposite to each other to cut down on length, though I do doubt the decision of which questions he/she actually used...
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:57 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:01 am (UTC)(link)If we can have fills with rape where it is clearly being done against the person's consent (hence the term "rape"), deal with gender issues, have generous use of "date rape" scenarios (including fuck-or-die and AMTDI), then disability prompts should not be an issue. There are a whole host of other prompts and fills which are clearly not OK in real life, but we're writing and prompting them anyways.
This argument seriously needs to end.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:07 am (UTC)(link)Several of you clearly believe that healing PWD against their will or without their knowledge is a great idea. Several of you clearly believe that going out and "helping" people based on the able-bodied person's idea of what help they need is a great idea. The OP of this prompt has outright said that their issue with the disabled people and their life is how annoying it is to have disabled people in your life.
I don't believe that any of you will rape me. But I do believe, based on some of the things that I've seen said here, that if I encounter any of you in real life you might harm me. And I would like to believe that some education might happen here, probably not to the original poster who has clearly checked out of the discussion, but to some of the lurkers. I would like to believe that some of those lurkers will think twice about the people with disabilities in their lives.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:09 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:13 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:24 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:13 am (UTC)(link)I have no idea what your issues are, and you have no idea what mine are or what the OP's are. Maybe the OP is an ableist, maybe she isn't. Maybe s/he has issues with all disabled people, or mabye just the ones in his/her life. We don't know and assuming otherwise is ignorance all around.
I always make the assumption that someone can harm me. I assume that people are ignorant, and I try to be tolerant. But honestly, this isn't a school and we're not here to teach lessons or show people why their prompts can't happen in RL.
This is a kink meme. Meant for kinks and for fun. Please keep it that way.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:33 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:38 am (UTC)(link)I'm not sure there is a "right" place to discuss issues like this, but there are certainly appropriate and inappropriate places and ways. This is a hurtful and vengeful discussion in a kink meme. Had this been moved to the discussion thread (as asked) and talked about in a calm manner without the insults and the intentional disregard of the feelings of anons who feel differently, then I think that would have been a better course - I wouldn't have a problem with it then.
(frozen comment) DISCUSSION
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:42 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: DISCUSSION
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:47 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
I am confused by this statement and would like clarification of what you mean. What kind of harm do you mean?
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:26 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:32 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:36 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:43 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:46 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:42 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:53 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) - 2011-03-18 03:55 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:08 am (UTC)(link)