This is the clusterfuck that never ends.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:04 am (UTC)(link)"If only someone could fix the lazy broken people in my life even though they're welfare queens who don't deserve it boo hoo."
Tata. As you won't be responding, I shan't expect to hear anymore from you.
Tata. As you won't be responding, I shan't expect to hear anymore from you.
I read it as the suggestion was that the sick character brushes away Harry's initial concern as they have learned to live with the pain, not because they don't want to be cured.
Those are two very different scenarios. One is Harry being a pain in the neck when he can't do anything productive. The other is Harry having a way to actually help.
Yes, curing someone without consent is full of massive massive, Mouse and Sue sized issues even without throwing a bond into the mix. But the prompt never says they don't want to be cured, either in this way or in anyway, just that they don't want people fussing over them and not changing anything.
Those are two very different scenarios. One is Harry being a pain in the neck when he can't do anything productive. The other is Harry having a way to actually help.
Yes, curing someone without consent is full of massive massive, Mouse and Sue sized issues even without throwing a bond into the mix. But the prompt never says they don't want to be cured, either in this way or in anyway, just that they don't want people fussing over them and not changing anything.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lightgetsin
2011-03-18 01:08 am (UTC)(link)
Two things.
1. Your definition of disability appears to be based on stereotypes and ignorance. It is absolutely not true that people with physical disabilities are disabled and people with chronic illnesses are not. As a matter of fact, there is an anon on this meme I know well who has a disability based on chronic illness and pain, who is probably spitting at sight of your comment.
What the op asked for would be a person who not only met the legal definition of disabled in the United States, but who would also be perfectly right to claim and develop a disabled identity as a larger matter.
This prompt is about a disabled person, make no mistake about that.
2. Your contention that the prompt would have to be about me personally in order for me to be offended is absurd. It makes a good derailing tactic -- in fact I think it's the middle square on at least one derailing bingo card -- but "it's just fiction, don't take it personal" is not going to persuade me, no.
1. Your definition of disability appears to be based on stereotypes and ignorance. It is absolutely not true that people with physical disabilities are disabled and people with chronic illnesses are not. As a matter of fact, there is an anon on this meme I know well who has a disability based on chronic illness and pain, who is probably spitting at sight of your comment.
What the op asked for would be a person who not only met the legal definition of disabled in the United States, but who would also be perfectly right to claim and develop a disabled identity as a larger matter.
This prompt is about a disabled person, make no mistake about that.
2. Your contention that the prompt would have to be about me personally in order for me to be offended is absurd. It makes a good derailing tactic -- in fact I think it's the middle square on at least one derailing bingo card -- but "it's just fiction, don't take it personal" is not going to persuade me, no.
Emmy, I've revised my opinion.
I would very much like for you to delete this entire thread, as I am very sick of people telling me that it's wrong. I knew there were bigots out there, but I didn't know they were so apparent in this meme.
I will - for the time being - be leaving this meme entirely. I have asked for a work of fiction and been told that I am an ableist, which I find an insult worse than an ass or a bitch, and that wanting a small piece of fantasy happy-ending that is likely to never happen in my life is wrong. My apologies to you for all the spam this has prompted, for the discussions irrelevant to kink and filling kink, and the problems that this prompt has caused. It has caused unneeded hurt, and that was not the intention.
Again, my apologies to you.
-The OP
I would very much like for you to delete this entire thread, as I am very sick of people telling me that it's wrong. I knew there were bigots out there, but I didn't know they were so apparent in this meme.
I will - for the time being - be leaving this meme entirely. I have asked for a work of fiction and been told that I am an ableist, which I find an insult worse than an ass or a bitch, and that wanting a small piece of fantasy happy-ending that is likely to never happen in my life is wrong. My apologies to you for all the spam this has prompted, for the discussions irrelevant to kink and filling kink, and the problems that this prompt has caused. It has caused unneeded hurt, and that was not the intention.
Again, my apologies to you.
-The OP
The prompt -- and many anons are, however, going way out of their way to demonstrate that they do assume character x wants to be cured. Which can be an ablist assumption. Some people with disabilities seek cures. Many, many do not. However, the default assumption that someone with a disability must want a cure is ablist. And at this point, I am really really not willing or able to give anyone the benefit of the doubt on that one, given other comments made.
Given the OP's recent comments about wanting a "fantasy happy-ending" and all that entails, not giving the benefit of the doubt seems to be the way to go...
... do I need to point out that it is a "fantasy happy-ending" and not everyone's happy endings are going to be the same?
Ask yourself this: would you feel the same if the prompt had had been written so that the person with the disability was not cured, and they lived happily ever after with the disease?
If the answer is 'no, it would not bother me', then you are a disableist - because you cannot accept that some people do want to be cured.
As another anon mentioned, the OP didn't state what the other character wanted, and as someone else (perhaps the OP) mentioned, the prompt states no where that the disease is actually cured.
You are, in fact, assuming an ending to a fic that was never written.
Ask yourself this: would you feel the same if the prompt had had been written so that the person with the disability was not cured, and they lived happily ever after with the disease?
If the answer is 'no, it would not bother me', then you are a disableist - because you cannot accept that some people do want to be cured.
As another anon mentioned, the OP didn't state what the other character wanted, and as someone else (perhaps the OP) mentioned, the prompt states no where that the disease is actually cured.
You are, in fact, assuming an ending to a fic that was never written.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:23 am (UTC)(link)(Not the previous anon, but still commenting.)
I will agree with you on #1, though I'm not the anon you speak of and I don't know him/her.
I'm not sure that the OP was asking for a disabled person, however. As another anon pointed out, Thomas and Susan's situations also fit the prompt.
...and I'll agree with you on your second point. It doesn't have to be about you, although the recent comments are getting rather biting.
I will agree with you on #1, though I'm not the anon you speak of and I don't know him/her.
I'm not sure that the OP was asking for a disabled person, however. As another anon pointed out, Thomas and Susan's situations also fit the prompt.
...and I'll agree with you on your second point. It doesn't have to be about you, although the recent comments are getting rather biting.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
lightgetsin
2011-03-18 01:35 am (UTC)(link)
It doesn't have to be about you, although the recent comments are getting rather biting.
Not my problem. And for the record, I have not said a single thing anon in this thread. I will put my name on everything I've said here gladly.
Not my problem. And for the record, I have not said a single thing anon in this thread. I will put my name on everything I've said here gladly.
Agree: that is an ableist assumption; not all who are diseased/disabled seek cures. Some do, some don't.
Disagree: the prompt does not call for it. The prompt, as I read it, is asking if Harry can even offer the cure, and if he decides he can risk it - which for Harry is the more likely possibility, depending on circumstances and how deep this "bond" goes - how does he go about accomplishing that. The prompt asks: "if he does [ie: if he can go through with the cure], will he tell the one he cures?"
The obvious "other question" there is will he go through with it and tell the other character. I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in cutting questions that were opposite to each other to cut down on length, though I do doubt the decision of which questions he/she actually used...
Disagree: the prompt does not call for it. The prompt, as I read it, is asking if Harry can even offer the cure, and if he decides he can risk it - which for Harry is the more likely possibility, depending on circumstances and how deep this "bond" goes - how does he go about accomplishing that. The prompt asks: "if he does [ie: if he can go through with the cure], will he tell the one he cures?"
The obvious "other question" there is will he go through with it and tell the other character. I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in cutting questions that were opposite to each other to cut down on length, though I do doubt the decision of which questions he/she actually used...
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 01:51 am (UTC)(link)The discussion thread is here:
http://scribe-protra.livejournal.com/216205.html
http://scribe-protra.livejournal.com/216205.html
Entire thread in three lines:
-Disabled Prompt.
-I don't like your prompt because Harry wants to cure the disabled person.
-Rant Rant Rant.
-Disabled Prompt.
-I don't like your prompt because Harry wants to cure the disabled person.
-Rant Rant Rant.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:12 am (UTC)(link)I live with a physically disabled brother and a mentally disabled aunt and know how very hard it can be to live with disabled people who look and act "normal."
Bully for you. As someone is IS a disabled person who looks and acts "normal", I was every bit as pissed off by the prompt as LGI was.
Wanting cures for a person with a disability when the PWD has NOT REQUESTED A CURE is ablist and insulting.
Also, I fail to see how helping with a problem is insulting
"Helping" requires the person being helped has requested help. Do you also grab the hands of blind people and drag them across the street without them asking? Because that's what this is about.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:15 am (UTC)(link)If you mean me, than I am actually shaking with rage and the feel of being attacked in my own community, not spitting!
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:20 am (UTC)(link)"Helping" requires the person being helped has requested help. Do you also grab the hands of blind people and drag them across the street without them asking? Because that's what this is about.
No, that's not what this is about. That's what this has been made to be about.
Helping does not require that someone request help - helping can be offered. IE, if I ask that blind person if they want help across the street when I see him having trouble, I am giving help. He has not asked for it and he has every right to decline it. An ableist would, as you put it "drag them across the street" anyways. The prompt follows more along the lines of "I didn't realize you were blind."
And still - not what the prompt was about. If you find out someone has cancer, then go and research to find out more about it and also find out there's a cure for the type of cancer they have (yes, this is a fictional world where there's some sort of cure), what do you do with that? Do you tell them about the cure? Or, as some of the non-OP's are suggesting, do you just assume that they don't know about it and go about assuming that they don't want to be cured? That is what the prompt is about. Knowledge, and what you do with it. Finding a "happy ending" whether that ending means a cure, living with vampirism, dodging bullets, or being satisfied that you have offered all you could and there's nothing more you can do.
No, that's not what this is about. That's what this has been made to be about.
Helping does not require that someone request help - helping can be offered. IE, if I ask that blind person if they want help across the street when I see him having trouble, I am giving help. He has not asked for it and he has every right to decline it. An ableist would, as you put it "drag them across the street" anyways. The prompt follows more along the lines of "I didn't realize you were blind."
And still - not what the prompt was about. If you find out someone has cancer, then go and research to find out more about it and also find out there's a cure for the type of cancer they have (yes, this is a fictional world where there's some sort of cure), what do you do with that? Do you tell them about the cure? Or, as some of the non-OP's are suggesting, do you just assume that they don't know about it and go about assuming that they don't want to be cured? That is what the prompt is about. Knowledge, and what you do with it. Finding a "happy ending" whether that ending means a cure, living with vampirism, dodging bullets, or being satisfied that you have offered all you could and there's nothing more you can do.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:22 am (UTC)(link)Also - is it insulting to you that I want there to be a cure available so you have the choice? I'm sorry, but I find THAT insulting to everyone else out there with the same disability who does want the cure, and does want the choice.
Just because there is a cure doesn't mean you have to use it, for chrissakes.
Just because there is a cure doesn't mean you have to use it, for chrissakes.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
lightgetsin
2011-03-18 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
when I see him having trouble,
Ah, but the problem is this idea of when you see him having trouble constructs the entire idea around your able-bodied notion of what is trouble and what a disabled person needs. In my rather large experience, people think I'm "having trouble" when I am literally standing at a street corner waiting for the light to change and twittering. Just being disabled in most cases is apparently "in trouble."
To put a finer point on it, it is pretty universally agreed in the disabled circles I move in that unsolicited helpers are more obnoxious than anything. And are, significantly, really just out to make themselves feel good. It's usually worth being polite as you brush them off, but people who randomly come up to me to offer help are wasting my time, getting in my way, and imposing their able-bodied idea of "help" and my ability onto me from a position of ignorance. People who actually want to be helpful wait to be asked, because they understand it is not their place to impose their ideas onto someone else.
And that is what the prompt is about.
Ah, but the problem is this idea of when you see him having trouble constructs the entire idea around your able-bodied notion of what is trouble and what a disabled person needs. In my rather large experience, people think I'm "having trouble" when I am literally standing at a street corner waiting for the light to change and twittering. Just being disabled in most cases is apparently "in trouble."
To put a finer point on it, it is pretty universally agreed in the disabled circles I move in that unsolicited helpers are more obnoxious than anything. And are, significantly, really just out to make themselves feel good. It's usually worth being polite as you brush them off, but people who randomly come up to me to offer help are wasting my time, getting in my way, and imposing their able-bodied idea of "help" and my ability onto me from a position of ignorance. People who actually want to be helpful wait to be asked, because they understand it is not their place to impose their ideas onto someone else.
And that is what the prompt is about.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:39 am (UTC)(link)Actually I DO want a cure for my disability. But if anyone tried to give me one without my knowledge I would hurt them so hard they'd need my pain meds more than I do.
This entire prompt is about Harry curing someone without their knowledge or consent:
This entire prompt is about Harry curing someone without their knowledge or consent:
[Sick!character] has lived with this illness for a long time, and brushes it off
will he tell the one he cures?
Alternately, you can focus on [...] the cured character finding out about the bond.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:52 am (UTC)(link)Lovely. Again, this prompt is not about you or even your interpretation of the prompt. You have your interpretation of it, it offends you, great. Get away from it. It's actively aggravating you, so get away from it. Please, stop jumping on people's prompts. Even if you find it offensive, it still follows the basic rules, and I would hate to see people afraid to post their own prompts because they're afraid someone would interpret it based on their own sensitivities. You don't like it, it offends you, we get it.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:53 am (UTC)(link)So you're saying I should just let the person fall on their ass when they're doing so? I see that often enough, and most people just walk on by and don't care. I'm ashamed to admit that I've walked by a few times and not offered help when I'm running late. Why do people do this? IMHO, mostly because no one cares anymore - the person who fell is just going to say no anyways, right? And, hey, it's not my problem, right?
I'm sorry, but I'm actually less likely to help the person who asks for it. That could be because where I'm raised, the people who ask for help are the lazy asses who won't work, won't do what they're able, and are looking for handouts. The ones who need help are the ones who don't ask.
But I will admit that is a very localized mentality and reality, and does not apply everywhere. I do not assume it is the same when I travel, or when I talk to others.
I will also agree with you that standing around does not constitute "trouble" (I've had the same problem once or twice myself, funnily enough), and that "trouble" is subjective. Where I'm from, however, unsolicited help is rare enough that it is not obnoxious and worth thanking the person for offering. Even when you're just standing there and you don't know why they're asking if you need it.
I'm sorry, but I'm actually less likely to help the person who asks for it. That could be because where I'm raised, the people who ask for help are the lazy asses who won't work, won't do what they're able, and are looking for handouts. The ones who need help are the ones who don't ask.
But I will admit that is a very localized mentality and reality, and does not apply everywhere. I do not assume it is the same when I travel, or when I talk to others.
I will also agree with you that standing around does not constitute "trouble" (I've had the same problem once or twice myself, funnily enough), and that "trouble" is subjective. Where I'm from, however, unsolicited help is rare enough that it is not obnoxious and worth thanking the person for offering. Even when you're just standing there and you don't know why they're asking if you need it.
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 02:57 am (UTC)(link)You're bitching about this but not the rampant non-con prompted. Get off your high horse.
OP here.
There may be such people, but I'm right there with you. Alwaysagirl!Harry in my mind is always a few inches taller than Marcone, and when she has to dress up and (potentially?) wear high heels for him -- like in the pretend-they're-together fic, can't find the link now -- I always wondered what that difference in height would mean for the image Marcone's presenting to his rivals.
Plus, none of the fics have them figuring it out in bed :D
There may be such people, but I'm right there with you. Alwaysagirl!Harry in my mind is always a few inches taller than Marcone, and when she has to dress up and (potentially?) wear high heels for him -- like in the pretend-they're-together fic, can't find the link now -- I always wondered what that difference in height would mean for the image Marcone's presenting to his rivals.
Plus, none of the fics have them figuring it out in bed :D
(frozen comment) Re: Please, don't say anything. Even the subject line is full of fail.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-18 03:01 am (UTC)(link)Agreed.
If we can have fills with rape where it is clearly being done against the person's consent (hence the term "rape"), deal with gender issues, have generous use of "date rape" scenarios (including fuck-or-die and AMTDI), then disability prompts should not be an issue. There are a whole host of other prompts and fills which are clearly not OK in real life, but we're writing and prompting them anyways.
This argument seriously needs to end.
If we can have fills with rape where it is clearly being done against the person's consent (hence the term "rape"), deal with gender issues, have generous use of "date rape" scenarios (including fuck-or-die and AMTDI), then disability prompts should not be an issue. There are a whole host of other prompts and fills which are clearly not OK in real life, but we're writing and prompting them anyways.
This argument seriously needs to end.
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